The torture excuse

Pat Lang has a very good post about torture, in which he describes speaking before audiences where the subject comes up. They don't seem to be surprised by the pragmatica argument against torture, which is that it produces bad information and has various negative consequences.

He says people seem more surprised when he says that torture is wrong and dishonorable under any circumstances.

Then he addresses the sophomoric argument for torture, which is that someone knows about the location of a nuclear bomb about to go off in the middle of New York City. Wouldn't it be right to torture him like in the movies to get the information.

Lang writes (Cheney and the "Tormenters" No Quarter blog 11/07/05):

With the conversation having progressed to this point, a look of dramatic, and cynical world-weariness comes over some members of the audience and someone (often a woman) asks me what I would do if the "authorities" had captured "Fulaan Abu Shuismuh" (so and so, the father of what's his name) and this creep has the secret information needed to prevent a terrorist outrage, and won't talk. "Isn't it right to do whatever it takes....."

And he describes how he responds to it:

That is the question that is always asked, often with a kind of dreamy, far off look in the eyes. I have gotten tired of this Sado-Masochistic day-dreaming, so, in response I ask them how far they would go in "whatever it takes?"
"All the way," is what these usually liberal, often academic, middle class Americans normally say.

"OK," says I. "Let's say he is really obdurate and the clock is ticking on said 'terrorist outrage,' so we bring him in here and you and you will hold him down while I take his fingers and toes off one at a time with garden shears until he talks? Are you "in" for that?"

Shocked silence follows. "Ah, I get it," says I. " You mean that it would be 'all right' for people like me to do these things." At that point it can be seen from the faces that this is the case.

"Ah," says I as a "follow up," "then how far are you willing to go in 'immunizing' the tormentors from prosecution once the GWOT [global war on terror] is a memory?" This does not get an answer. So, this is all BS, a fantasy for everyman and everywoman (complete with guilty frisson of titillation).